SIST EN 13848-3:2009
(Main)Railway applications - Track - Track geometry quality - Part 3: Measuring systems - Track construction and maintenance machines
Railway applications - Track - Track geometry quality - Part 3: Measuring systems - Track construction and maintenance machines
This European Standard specifies the minimum requirements that shall be met by measuring systems fitted on track construction and maintenance machines to give an evaluation of track geometry quality when measuring one or more of the parameters described in EN 13848-1. It does not seek to prescribe which parameters are to be measured, since these depend upon the measuring capabilities of the machine and the purpose for which the machine or its measuring system is used.
It also sets out the acceptable differences from EN 13848-1 when using track construction and maintenance machines to measure track geometry. It applies to track geometry measuring systems which are fitted to track construction and maintenance machines from one year after the date of implementation of this standard.
Bahnanwendungen - Oberbau - Qualität der Gleisgeometrie - Teil 3: Messsysteme - Gleisbau- und Instandhaltungsmaschinen
Diese Europäische Norm definiert die Mindestanforderungen, die von Messsystemen auf Gleisbau- und Instandhaltungsmaschinen erfüllt werden müssen, damit eine Bewertung der Qualität der Gleisgeometrie erfolgen kann, wenn ein oder mehrere Parameter nach EN 13848-1 genutzt werden. Eine Beschreibung der zu messenden Parameter wird nicht angestrebt, weil diese von den Messmöglichkeiten der Maschine und dem Zweck der Maschine oder ihres eingesetzten Messsystems abhängig ist.
Die akzeptablen Unterschiede für den Einsatz der Gleisbau- und Instandhaltungsmaschinen für die Messung der Gleisgeometrie nach EN 13848-1 werden dargestellt. Dieser Teil findet Anwendung für Gleisgeometrie-messsysteme, die an Gleisbau- und Instandhaltungsmaschinen befestigt sind, ein Jahr nach der Veröffentlichung dieser Norm.
Applications ferroviaires - Voie - Qualité géométrique de la voie - Partie 3 : Systèmes de mesure - Engins de travaux et de maintenance de la voie
La présente Norme européenne spécifie les exigences minimales qui doivent être respectées par les
systèmes de mesure qui sont installés sur des engins de travaux et de maintenance de la voie et qui
fournissent une évaluation de la qualité géométrique de la voie en mesurant un ou plusieurs paramètres
décrits dans l’EN 13848-1. Elle ne cherche pas à prescrire quels paramètres seront mesurés, puisque ceux-ci
dépendent des capacités de mesure de l’engin et des besoins d’utilisation de l’engin ou de son système de
mesure.
La présente norme établit également les différences qui peuvent être acceptées par rapport à l’EN 13848-1
lorsqu'un engin de travaux et de maintenance de la voie est utilisé pour la mesure de la géométrie de la voie.
Elle s’applique aux systèmes de mesure qui sont installés à bord des engins de travaux et de maintenance de
la voie un an après la mise en application de la norme.
Železniške naprave - Zgornji ustroj - Kakovost tirne geometrije - 3. del: Merilni sistemi - Tirna mehanizacija za gradnjo in vzdrževanje
General Information
Relations
Standards Content (Sample)
2003-01.Slovenski inštitut za standardizacijo. Razmnoževanje celote ali delov tega standarda ni dovoljeno.Železniške naprave - Zgornji ustroj - Kakovost tirne geometrije - 3. del: Merilni sistemi - Tirna mehanizacija za gradnjo in vzdrževanjeBahnanwendungen - Oberbau - Qualität der Gleisgeometrie - Teil 3: Messsysteme - Gleisbau- und InstandhaltungsmaschinenApplications ferroviaires - Voie - Qualité géométrique de la voie - Partie 3 : Systèmes de mesure - Engins de travaux et de maintenance de la voieRailway applications - Track - Track geometry quality - Part 3: Measuring systems - Track construction and maintenance machines93.100Gradnja železnicConstruction of railways45.080Rails and railway componentsICS:Ta slovenski standard je istoveten z:EN 13848-3:2009SIST EN 13848-3:2009en,fr01-junij-2009SIST EN 13848-3:2009SLOVENSKI
STANDARD
SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EUROPEAN STANDARDNORME EUROPÉENNEEUROPÄISCHE NORMEN 13848-3April 2009ICS 93.100 English VersionRailway applications - Track - Track geometry quality - Part 3:Measuring systems - Track construction and maintenancemachinesApplications ferroviaires - Voie - Qualité géométrique de lavoie - Partie 3 : Systèmes de mesure - Engins de travaux etde maintenance de la voieBahnanwendungen - Oberbau - Qualität der Gleisgeometrie- Teil 3: Messsysteme - Gleisbau- undInstandhaltungsmaschinenThis European Standard was approved by CEN on 19 March 2009.CEN members are bound to comply with the CEN/CENELEC Internal Regulations which stipulate the conditions for giving this EuropeanStandard the status of a national standard without any alteration. Up-to-date lists and bibliographical references concerning such nationalstandards may be obtained on application to the CEN Management Centre or to any CEN member.This European Standard exists in three official versions (English, French, German). A version in any other language made by translationunder the responsibility of a CEN member into its own language and notified to the CEN Management Centre has the same status as theofficial versions.CEN members are the national standards bodies of Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland,France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal,Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and United Kingdom.EUROPEAN COMMITTEE FOR STANDARDIZATIONCOMITÉ EUROPÉEN DE NORMALISATIONEUROPÄISCHES KOMITEE FÜR NORMUNGManagement Centre:
Avenue Marnix 17,
B-1000 Brussels© 2009 CENAll rights of exploitation in any form and by any means reservedworldwide for CEN national Members.Ref. No. EN 13848-3:2009: ESIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 2 Contents Page Foreword .3 1 Scope .4 2 Normative references .4 3 Terms and definitions .4 4 Symbols and abbreviations .6 5 Track geometry measuring system fitted on track construction and maintenance machines .6 5.1 General description .6 5.2 Environmental conditions .8 5.3 Track features input .9 5.4 Data localisation .9 5.5 Measuring system/device .9 5.6 Data processing . 11 5.7 Data output . 11 5.8 Data storage . 11 6 Testing of track geometry measuring and recording system . 12 6.1 Introduction . 12 6.2 Calibration . 12 6.3 Validation by field tests . 12 6.4 Routine validation . 15 Annex A (normative)
Parameters measured by track construction and maintenance machine . 16 A.1 Introduction . 16 A.2 Track gauge . 16 A.3 Longitudinal level . 17 A.4 Cross level . 18 A.5 Alignment . 19 A.6 Twist . 20 Annex B (informative)
Principles of measurement . 21 B.1 General Description . 21 B.2 Longitudinal level and alignment . 21 B.3 Track gauge . 21 B.4 Cross level . 22 B.5 Twist . 22 Annex C (normative)
Description of field tests: values to be respected . 23 C.1 General . 23 C.2 Repeatability . 23 C.3 Reproducibility . 24 Bibliography . 25
SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 3 Foreword This document (EN 13848-3:2009) has been prepared by Technical Committee CEN/TC 256 “Railway applications”, the secretariat of which is held by DIN. This European Standard shall be given the status of a national standard, either by publication of an identical text or by endorsement, at the latest by October 2009, and conflicting national standards shall be withdrawn at the latest by October 2009. Attention is drawn to the possibility that some of the elements of this document may be the subject of patent rights. CEN [and/or CENELEC] shall not be held responsible for identifying any or all such patent rights. This European Standard is one of the series EN 13848 “Railway applications – Track – Track geometry quality” as listed below: Part 1: Characterisation of track geometry Part 2: Measuring systems – Track recording vehicles Part 3: Measuring systems – Track construction and maintenance machines Part 4: Measuring systems – Manual and lightweight devices Part 5: Geometric quality levels According to the CEN/CENELEC Internal Regulations, the national standards organizations of the following countries are bound to implement this European Standard: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 4 1 Scope This European Standard specifies the minimum requirements that shall be met by measuring systems fitted on track construction and maintenance machines to give an evaluation of track geometry quality when measuring one or more of the parameters described in EN 13848-1. It does not seek to prescribe which parameters are to be measured, since these depend upon the measuring capabilities of the machine and the purpose for which the machine or its measuring system is used. It also sets out the acceptable differences from EN 13848-1 when using track construction and maintenance machines to measure track geometry. It applies to track geometry measuring systems which are fitted to track construction and maintenance machines from one year after the date of implementation of this standard. 2 Normative references The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document. For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any amendments) applies. EN 13848-1:2003+A1:2008, Railway applications – Track – Track geometry quality – Part 1: Characterisation of track geometry EN 13848-2:2006, Railway applications – Track – Track geometry quality – Part 2: Measuring systems – Track recording vehicles ENV 13005:1999, Guide to the expression of uncertainty in measurement 3 Terms and definitions For the purposes of this document, the following terms and definitions apply. 3.1 track construction and maintenance machine self propelled or hauled machine/vehicle designed to construct track, maintain track and/or improve the quality of track and which is equipped with track geometry measuring systems. Also referred to as “machine” in this European Standard 3.2
machine same as “track construction and maintenance machine” (3.1) 3.3 sensor device which detects, measures and translates characteristics of track geometry into quantities that can be used for further data processing 3.4 measuring direction course between two points on a track, independent of orientation of the machine; between two given points A and B, there are two opposite directions: A to B and B to A 3.5 orientation physical positioning of a vehicle, e.g. a track construction and maintenance machine, with regards to which end of the vehicle is leading or trailing SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 5 3.6 repeatability degree of agreement between the values of successive measurements of the same parameter made under same conditions, within a short period of time, where the individual measurements are carried out on the same section of track using the same measurement and interpretation methods, subject to the following: a) similar speed b) same measuring direction c) same machine/vehicle orientation d) similar environmental conditions 3.7 reproducibility degree of agreement between the values of successive measurements of the same parameter made under varying conditions, within a short period of time, where the individual measurements are carried out on the same section of track using the same measurement and interpretation methods, subject to one or more of the following: a) variation of speed b) different measuring directions c) different machine/vehicle orientations d) different environmental conditions 3.8
validation set of tests for determining if the measuring system of a track construction and maintenance machine complies with the requirements of this standard 3.9 calibration set of procedures for adjusting the measuring devices of track construction and maintenance machines in order to meet the requirements of this standard 3.10 event record of a track or line-side feature that can be either technical, physical or natural 3.11 localisation information required to locate events and the measured track geometry 3.12 reference track track with known characteristics, to allow adequate testing of the track geometry measuring and recording system 3.13 transfer function refer to EN 13848-2:2006 (Annex A) 3.14 resolution refer to EN13848-1 (3.1.8) SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 6 3.15 uncertainty refer to ENV 13005:1999 (2.3.5) 4 Symbols and abbreviations For the purposes of this document, the following symbols and abbreviations apply. Table 1 — Symbols and abbreviations No. Symbol Designation Unit1 D1 Wavelength range 3 m < λ ≤ 25 m m 2 D2 Wavelength range 25 m < λ ≤ 70 m m 3 D3 Wavelength range 70 m < λ ≤ 150 m for longitudinal level Wavelength range 70 m < λ ≤ 200 m for alignment m 4 Lo Lower limit of wavelength range D1, D2, D3 m 5 Lu Upper limit of wavelength range D1, D2, D3 m 6 λ Wavelength m 7 l Twist base-length m
5 Track geometry measuring system fitted on track construction and maintenance machines 5.1 General description This standard concerns only the track geometry measuring systems installed on the machines used to measure the parameters described in EN 13848-1. It does not cover the other measurement systems; for example those used for the tamping process. For the purpose of this standard, the track geometry measuring system fitted on machines is divided into several units as represented in Figure 1 below.
SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 7
Figure 1 — Track geometry measuring system The track geometry measuring system installed on a machine is intended to: a) measure track geometry parameters; b) measure the distance run by the machine during measuring operations; c) associate these two measurements in order to set up a precise location and process the measured data, preferably on board, in order to analyse the track geometry parameters; d) record these parameters on paper and store them on computer readable media. The track geometry measuring system shall produce reliable results under normal operating conditions of the machine. The results of the above system can and have been used for track quality monitoring and safety assurance with respect to track geometry on track sections where maintenance works have been or will be carried out. This standard takes account of the capabilities of the equipment on existing machines in its requirements and as a consequence some of the requirements of EN 13848-1 have been relaxed. There is no requirement for a machine to measure all the parameters listed in EN 13848-1. However, the parameters to be measured and their processing shall at least meet the requirements stated in Annex A.
NOTE The track construction and maintenance machines fleet in Europe is much larger than the track recording car fleet, by a factor of 10 – 20. In many cases, although this is not their main function, these machines are used for track geometry measurement. The track geometry measurement should be made on a loaded track as defined in EN 13848-1. Since the load of the recording trailer affects the measurement, both the load and its distribution shall be constant.
MEASURING SYSTEM / DEVICE (Clause 5.5) DATA OUTPUT (Clause 5.7) DATA STORAGE (Clause 5.8) TRACK FEATURES INPUT (Clause 5.3) DATA LOCALISATION (Clause 5.4) DATA PROCESSING (Clause 5.6) SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 8 Contrarily to the measuring systems fitted to track recording vehicles, the measuring systems fitted to machines are not required to measure in both machine orientations. If the measurement is made during the work process, the measuring speed shall not limit the operating speed of the machine. The computer system shall be of a kind and type suitable for rail-bound vehicle applications and shall represent widely used and supported technologies. Data shall not be encrypted and data formats shall be documented in order to make the data accessible to the user. This requirement applies to both track features inputs and measurement outputs. To prevent the interruption of the track geometry measurement and the loss of recorded data in case the measuring hardware power supply fails, it is recommended that an adequate uninterruptible power supply be provided.
5.2 Environmental conditions 5.2.1 Introduction All the measuring devices fitted on a machine shall produce reliable results under the environmental conditions specified below. 5.2.2 Climatic conditions 5.2.2.1 General The effects of climatic conditions on components outside and inside the machine shall be considered. These shall include: 5.2.2.2 Outside components: a) ambient temperature; b) condensation, particularly with sudden variation of temperature at the entrance or at the exit of a tunnel; c) possibility of snow; d) ambient relative humidity. 5.2.2.3 Inside components: a) ambient temperature for operating and storage conditions; b) ambient relative humidity. 5.2.3 Operating conditions The effects of operating conditions shall be considered. These shall include: a) ballast or iron fragments impacts; b) grease on the rail; c) reflection condition of the rail; SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 9 d) characteristic light conditions; e) dust, water and snow;
f) safety requirements (laser beam, for example); g) vibrations and shocks; h) electromagnetic environment; i) compatibility with signalling and communication systems. 5.3 Track features input The track features input supports the data localisation (see Clause 5.4) and shall include at least: a) line identification; b) track identification; c) kilometreage. Other inputs may be required as, for example, the altitude for inertial devices. All these data shall be able to be entered by manual or automatic means. 5.4 Data localisation Data localisation shall be referenced either to track axis or to a reference rail. The reference point for the data localisation system may be the kilometre post or other fixed points.
The data localisation system gives the machine’s position along the track and shall fulfil the following functions: a) synchronises the position with the reference point by various methods, using for example the satellite based positioning system, active or passive beacons or other singular points; b) measures the distance covered by the machine, compensating for any backward movement, and is generally based on sampling signals, which could be given by a wheel-mounted encoder or any other equivalent method; c) automatically corrects or allows manual correction of the inaccuracies caused by: 1) wear, sliding, conicity of the machine wheels; 2) difference of kilometre’s length; 3) uncertainty of the distance run transducer. 5.5 Measuring system/device 5.5.1 General Track geometry measuring relies on sensors, signal transmission and signal processing following various measuring principles as described in Annex B. SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 10 5.5.2 Sensors The sensors shall measure in real time the track geometry parameters or their components. It is desirable to measure the parameters under track loaded conditions. To comply with this, the sensors should be as close as possible to one of the vehicle’s loaded axles to respect measurement conditions set down in EN 13848-1. The sensors’ mechanical and electrical characteristics (frequency response, signal-to-noise ratio, gain, etc.) shall be adequate to enable the generation of track geometry parameters, independently of the environmental conditions on the railway network. 5.5.3 Signal transmission Signal transmission shall comply with all elements which are necessary for data interchange between the sensors and the signal processing unit. It shall comply with appropriate industry-accepted data interchange standards. The transmission characteristics shall be appropriate to the maximum measuring speed of the machine and the data volume. 5.5.4 Signal processing 5.5.4.1 Introduction A track geometry parameter is obtained from the signals coming from one or several sensors. The signal processing can include sampling, signal filtering, amplification and calculation. 5.5.4.2 Sampling The sampling for track geometry signals shall be triggered by a distance-based event so that the measurements are spatially orientated at equal intervals along the length of the track. All measurements shall be sampled at constant distance based intervals not larger than 0,5 m. NOTE For machines that move non-continuously and measure track geometry whilst working, the sampling interval may be extended to 1,5 m. 5.5.4.3 Filtering The filter characteristics like the transition (cut-off) wavelength, type of filter and the rate of attenuation (number of poles) shall be specified. To prevent aliasing of the data the analogue signal shall be filtered in accordance with the sampling theorem. If filters are applied to the recorded track data, they shall have the following main characteristics: a) lower cut-off wavelength, defined at – 3 dB, Lo = lower limit of at least wavelength range D1 (for high-pass and band-pass filters);
b) upper cut-off wavelength, defined at – 3 dB, Lu = upper limit of at least wavelength range D1 (for low-pass and band-pass filters); c) slope of at least 24 dB/octave in the stop-band. SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 11 5.6 Data processing 5.6.1 General requirements The data processing system hardware shall be suitable for use aboard a machine. In order to optimize data communication between the measuring system of the machine and external systems a simple data interface shall be provided. The software should be flexible and modular.
An increase in the number of input signals as well as of the number of calculations made shall be foreseen in the system design. 5.6.2 Parameter generation The signals processed in 5.5.4 shall be calculated in order to obtain parameters complying with requirements of Annex A. 5.6.3 Preparation for output interfaces The data processing system shall condition signals and associated information, and shall provide a track geometry chart and data storage. 5.7 Data output 5.7.1 Visualisation The general characteristics for the user’s interface shall include: a) representation of the measured parameters in graphical and data (numerical) form;
b) the localisation information or distance run from the starting point; c) software allowing adjustment of the visualisation. 5.7.2 Output of analysis results Outputs shall be provided in accordance with Annex A. 5.7.3 Data transfer The data shall be transferable using removable storage media, a network or a radio link complying with an industry standard. 5.8 Data storage As a minimum, the following data shall be stored in a prescribed retrievable format: a) those parameters described in Annex A that are measured; b) the result of any onboard processing including settings; c) the localisation information or distance run from the starting point; d) the date and time of the recording run; SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 12 e) identification of the machine; f) user remarks and actions; g) any other information on measurement validity. 6 Testing of track geometry measuring and recording system 6.1 Introduction This clause covers actions and procedures which are necessary to ensure effective operation of both the measuring devices and the corresponding processing system.
However, it should be noted that this clause does not deal with static and dynamic machine acceptance or quality of the work carried out by the machine. Compliance shall be demonstrated by the following procedures: a) Calibration This ensures an accurate setting of the devices within the track geometry measuring and recording system. b) Validation by field tests This demonstrates that the whole system complies with the requirements of Annex A for the measured parameters. c) Routine validation This ensures that the system continues to operate correctly during routine operations. 6.2 Calibration The measuring device shall be calibrated to ensure the continued accuracy of measurements. A manual describing the calibration requirements for both the measuring device and the corresponding processing system shall be prepared by the relevant manufacturer. The calibration requirements shall cover the method of checking and adjusting the system. Calibration shall be carried out at specified stages. As a minimum calibration shall take place: a) after the measuring equipment has been installed in the machine; b) after changes (new or maintained state) to the software or hardware systems or to the measuring equipment or to machine which may affect the track geometry measuring and recording system; c) after periodic maintenance or repair of the machine or track geometry measuring and recording systems as described in the relevant manual. 6.3 Validation by field tests 6.3.1 Overview In addition to a static verification of the accuracy of the track geometry measuring and recording system, a method based on comparison between different measurement runs on the same section of track shall be used to assess a measuring and recording system. SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 13 6.3.2 Field tests 6.3.2.1 Normal field test Validation procedures shall be applied to initial testing of a new or a modified track geometry measuring and recording system; for initial testing both repeatability and reproducibility tests shall be carried out. The track geometry measuring and recording system shall meet the requirements of Annex C in all the following test conditions: a) normal measuring and recording operation of the machine as specified by the machine manufacturer; b) various measuring speeds including the minimum and maximum machine-dependent measuring speeds; c) for repeatability and reproducibility, the minimum combination of runs and analyses shown in Tables 2 and 3 shall be carried out. The run numbers 5 and 6 are only required if the machine is capable of measuring in both orientations.
Static tests shall be carried out for example to ensure that there are no offsets in the measurement of cross level and track gauge. NOTE 1 For practical reasons, the minimum measuring speed should not be less than 3 km/h. NOTE 2 If the difference between the minimum and the maximum measuring speeds is less than or equal to 5 km/h, then testing at the maximum measuring speed is sufficient and the runs indicated as "Min" in the Table 2 below are not required. Table 2 — Required test runs RUN NUMBER SPEEDDIRECTIONORIENTATION1 Min A -> B Forward 2a Max A -> B Forward 2b Max A -> B Forward 3 Min B -> A Forward 4a Max B -> A Forward 4b Max B -> A Forward 5 Min A -> B or B -> A Reverse 6a Max A -> B or B -> A
Reverse 6b Max A -> B or B -> A
Reverse SIST EN 13848-3:2009
EN 13848-3:2009 (E) 14 Table 3 — Required comparisons Type of analysisMachine with1 measuring orientation Machinewith 2 measuring orientations Repeatability 2a & 2b, 4a & 4b
2a & 2b, 4a & 4b, 6a & 6b Reproducibility 1 & 2, 1 & 3, 1 & 4,
2 & 3, 2 & 4,
3 & 4 1 & 2, 1 & 3, 1 & 4, 1 & 5, 1 & 6, 2 & 3, 2 & 4, 2 & 5, 2 & 6, 3 & 4, 3 & 5, 3 & 6, 4 & 5, 4 & 6,
5 & 6
NOTE 3 In the above Table 3, run numbers 2, 4 and 6 without a letter means one can choose either run “a” or run ”b”. The tests shall be carried out on a track that includes: a) straight, curved (of both hands and having a radius not exceeding 1 500 m) and transition sections; b) sections with significant (at least 70 mm) cross level;
c) an average standard deviation for the longitudinal level of 2,0 mm or higher for D1; d) an average standard deviation for alignment of 1,2 mm or higher for D1. The test section shall be long enough to ensure that usable data is obtained over 500 continuous metres of track for each run. NOTE 4 For measurements with a sampling distance greater than 0,5 m (see note in 5.5.4.2), the minimum length of the test section should be extended proportionally (in the ratio of sampling distance: 0,5 m). Ideally, a reference track should be used or a comparison made with a track-recording vehicle. Design track data such as curve radii, and cross level, as well as measured values, shall be provided with the test report. 6.3.2.2 Simplified field test A simplified repeatability or reproducibility test shall be carried out in accordance with the manufacturer’s maintenance manual in the following circumstances: a) after a mai
...
Questions, Comments and Discussion
Ask us and Technical Secretary will try to provide an answer. You can facilitate discussion about the standard in here.